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If the First Industrial Revolution used water and steam to fundamentally change the nature of work, this industrial revolutionu2014the disruption of automation, information, the internet, and now AIu2014is transforming everything about the way we work, connect, and interact with the natural world. 

These changes have largely been regarded as a net good. After all, poverty across the world has fallen precipitously in the last 100 years. Life expectancy has nearly doubled. Literacy is four times higher. Hunger, malnutrition, waru2014all down. All good things.

But todayu2019s Honestly guest, writer Paul Kingsnorth, thinks that the way in which this progress has been achieved is detrimental not only to the environment but to our own mental and physical well-beingu2014and that underneath the extreme wealth built by human society is a massive sense of human and spiritual loss.

Paul is someone who has gone through a profound transformation over the past decade, and in a very public way. He was once considered one of the Westu2019s most radical and prominent environmentalistsu2014even chaining himself to a bridge in protest of road construction and leading The Ecologist, a left-wing environmental magazine. But he became disillusioned with an environmental movement that he says is now obsessed with cutting carbon emissions by any means, and getting captured by commercial interests in the process.

Paul and his family eventually left urban England to live off the land in rural Ireland, where they currently grow their own food; the children are homeschooled. 

One more thing of note on this Easter Sunday: Paul converted from a practicing Buddhist and Wiccan to an Orthodox Christianu2014which is about as traditional as it gets.

As youu2019ll hear in this conversation, Paul explains why he intentionally u201Cregressed.u201D In short: in our modern, hyper-connected, tech-obsessed worldu2014what he calls u201Cthe age of the machineu201Du2014Paul and his family are trying to live wildly. We talk about what that looks like for him, and for any of us trying to be free; we talk about how the left has strayed from its original principles; why the West has abandoned God; and how to fight everyday to live. . . simply.

To listen to our conversation, click below. Or scroll down for an edited transcript.

On how he got involved in the environmental movement:

Paul Kingsnorth: It was really a question of joining the dots. If you love the natural world, you look out and you see the natural world being destroyed, you try to stop it. But then the question you ask is, why are they building these motorways? Why do they want to increase traffic levels? Why do we need to drive faster? Why do we have this developing economy? And you start to join the dots and you start to see how consumerism works and how capitalism works and how industrialism works. And really, what I was realizing over all of that time is thatu2014and I still believe this to be the case nowu2014that the modern industrial economy, which brings us plenty of material benefits, is also a giant colonial machine that destroys the natural world and turns that bounty into product for us. And I could see that going on everywhere, and I became very passionate about it. And being very young and strong-willed, I thought we could save the world. 

Back in the 1990s, climate change was not on the front page of all the papers. People didnu2019t even really know what it was. Nobody talked about sustainability. There was no u201Cnet zero.u201D There was none of this stuff. It was long before all the corporations and the politicians decided they were going to run with this agenda, which back at the time we would have dreamed of happening. It didnu2019t quite turn out the way we thought.

Bari Weiss: If I had bumped into you in a pub at that time, and I had said to you, u201CWhat political party do you support?u201D or u201CDo you identify as a Marxist or an anti-capitalist?u201D would those terms have even resonated with you? How would you have described yourself at the time?

PK: Well, I would describe myself as a Green. Itu2019s not quite right and itu2019s not quite left. So I suppose I certainly would have regarded myself as a man of the left. But I was never a Marxist. I was always very suspicious of top-down solutions, ideological programs, because fundamentally, like most other Greens, I was a localist. And so I had this notion that certainly capitalism was a monster. Industrialism was a monster. What we needed to do was to live as locally as we could and live as simply as we could. I still think thatu2019s a good idea, although Iu2019m much less naive about the possibility of doing it now. But really, environmentalist politics, Green politics arose as a kind of challenge to both the capitalist right and the socialist left. I think since then itu2019s been very much swallowed by the left.

On leaving environmental activism:

BW: So, like any good story, yours has a turn, and at some point you start to becomeu2014well, youu2019ll tell me, but the word I would use would be disillusioned. What were the seeds of that change for you?

PK: I think itu2019s worth saying, for starters, that my feelings about the natural world are still fairly similar to the ones I had when I was young. Itu2019s not as if Iu2019ve suddenly decided that nature doesnu2019t matter and we can dig it all up and burn it. But what I started to see was a couple of things. One, I realized that this belief I had that we could create a radically different world wasnu2019t actually going to happen. It had been tried many times before, and it wasnu2019t possible. The momentum of this thing was just largely unstoppable. That doesnu2019t mean thereu2019s nothing good to be done, but the kind of progress of what I call u201Cthe machineu201D now is very wedged in. But then also something else happened to the Green movement, which is that the mainstream of the Green movement got captured by commercial interests. It also got captured by the progressive left. What it also did was it became obsessively focused on climate change, which is certainly a real thing and an important issue, but itu2019s only one of a suite of problems that arise from the industrial economy destroying the earth. But we got absolutely obsessed with it, and the whole of the Green movement became reduced to a kind of mission to cut carbon. Thatu2019s all it was about now. We were just going to reduce carbon emissions, and it didnu2019t matter how people did that.

So suddenly, these beautiful mountains I was walking on as a child were being covered in enormous industrial wind farms, and I was being told that this was the solution to saving the planet, even though the energy they created was going straight back into the consumer economy. And I was saying, no, this is not environmentalism, and neither is covering the farmland with giant mirrors, and neither is filling the seas full of wind farms and neither is corporate sustainability. The kind of activist optimism that I had when I was in my 20s started to look a bit unrealistic, shall we say. And I started to look at the Green movement and think, I donu2019t recognize this anymore. 

BW: Was there a break in the way that people inside of movements sort of become heretical and then have a dramatic break with their tribe? Was there anything like that for you? Or was it a kind of slow peeling away into this new brand of environmentalism?

PK: Well, you know this yourself better than anyone. The process of getting disillusioned is probably, for most people, a process rather than an event. 

BW: Yes.

PK: Itu2019s not as if you just wake up one day and realize everythingu2019s wrong and youu2019ve radically changed. It takes years, because you donu2019t want to necessarily break with it. Tribalism is very important to people. I was quite tribal about being a Green. I thought this was a great movement and I wanted to be part of it. And I was probably very egotistical about being some great Green writer as well. So it was important to me. It was part of my identity, I suppose. And I still consider myself a Green in many ways, but it was a process of just getting to the point where I thought, I canu2019t actually support this. I canu2019t in good conscience go out and campaign for these wind farms on the mountain.

On moving to Ireland to live off the land:

PK: My wife and I had wanted for a long time to get out of the rat race, find a bit of land, try and homeschool our children, try and grow our own food as much as we could. And so we did that in 2014. My wife was a doctor. She gave up her job. We left England. We came to Ireland where land was more affordable, and we bought the place weu2019re in now. And we thought, well, weu2019re going to just try this out because if we donu2019t, weu2019re going to regret it. So the last 10 years, really, have been an experiment where two people whou2019d grown up in urban and suburban England decided to dump themselves in rural Ireland and try and learn how to do everything from planting trees to building chicken houses to growing vegetables to all the other things that you do when youu2019re trying to live like that.

On his religious path to Christianity:

PK: When I was younger, I felt like the Earth was alive. I had a really strong sense of that. And so I felt like I was in some ways a sort of vague pagan and pantheist, and I was worshipping nature or worshipping through nature or something. When I got into my 40s, I decided I was going to go on a Zen Buddhist retreat. And actually, it was a very powerful experience, and I practiced Zen for quite a few years after that. And I had in mind that Iu2019d become a sort of practicing Buddhist, and I did in a very ill-disciplined way, and I got a lot out of Buddhism but there was still something missing. And it felt like Iu2019m just going through a series of stages of trying things. Itu2019s never quite enough. Thereu2019s still something Iu2019m reaching for, and Iu2019m reaching and reaching and stumbling on an inch at a time toward somethingu2014I didnu2019t know what it was or what I was really even looking for. 

BW: You really hit every station of the cross, as it were. Itu2019s Buddhism and itu2019s Daoism and itu2019s Sufism and itu2019s Wicca and itu2019s mythology. And Iu2019m sure you got something from each of those things. But why do you think you prioritized these Eastern religions before the one that had been practiced in your ancestral homeland for centuries?

PK: Thatu2019s the question, and it almost answers itself. Itu2019s because itu2019s the one thatu2019s been practiced in our ancestral homeland for centuries, and weu2019re growing up in a time where the culture weu2019re living in is what Iu2019ve called, in some of my essays recently, a u201Cculture of inversion.u201D So weu2019re turning everything on its head. We react against absolutely everything we used to be. And the fundamental thing we react against is the faith we used to have, which is Christianity. And so the Christian church can be held up as the fount of all evil.

Itu2019s very interesting in England to see that Christianity is regularly treated as this oppressive patriarchal religion, whereas a stronger, more patriarchal, more traditional religion like Islam is regularly kind of soft-soaped. Itu2019s very interesting. And the reason for that is very simply that Islam comes from somewhere else, and itu2019s practiced by minorities, whereas Christianity is what we used to be. And so thereu2019s a reaction thatu2019s been going on since at least the 1960s against the church. And I grew up with that, believing all of that. The churchu2014certainly Britain, anywayu2014has lost faith in itself. It doesnu2019t have a strong spirituality. So if you go into a church, youu2019re not going to get much from it. It feels like a sermon by a liberal NGO or something. Itu2019s fine, but it doesnu2019t feel like thereu2019s anything to it. And thatu2019s why people in the West, I think at least since the 1960s, always go East if theyu2019re looking for faith, unless theyu2019ve grown up in a strong faith environment themselves. 

My wife comes from a Sikh family. Her family were from India. She walked away from it, became quite secular like me, but sheu2019s gone back to it around the same time that I became a Christian. But I didnu2019t have anything to go back to. And we donu2019t go to Christianity, we go to Zen, or we go to exotic things that seem exciting, but we donu2019t really understand them and they donu2019t have the cultural baggage that the church has. I think thatu2019s probably the key thing. We think that the Christian church has certain things; in some ways, it is that. And so we want a spiritual path that doesnu2019t have the baggage of our own ancestry. Thatu2019s what a lot of people do, and thatu2019s certainly what I did. But it wasnu2019t giving me what I was looking for. What I was looking for turned out to be God, actually. Or maybe he was looking for me, which is more likely. I didnu2019t know, but there was always a void and it turned out to be God-shaped.

On the meaning of Easter:

PK: In the church, this Resurrection is the biggest, most astonishing, weirdest thing thatu2019s ever happened to humanity. And it is exactly something that happens when all hope is gone, when your Messiah has just been crucified and buried. Then this astonishing, impossible, and unexpected thing happens, which not only brings him back, but also completely rewires your understanding of what the world is and how it works. And thatu2019s what my coming to Christianity did to me. And every Easteru2014or Pascha, as we call it in the Eastern church, which is a corruption of [the word] Passover, actuallyu2014the story deepens for me. Itu2019s interesting because I used to think that you become a Christian and thatu2019s that and youu2019re sorted. But itu2019s not that. Itu2019s the beginning of a journey, and every year the journey gets deeper. So every time you go through this cycle of 40 days of fasting and then a feast at Easter, something else deepens. Itu2019s like you just dropped a couple of inches deeper into this thing that youu2019re in. And as I say, the world changes shape. So that is the kind of steady hope, and itu2019s always there. It doesnu2019t matter what humans do, and not everything is under our control. And thatu2019s okay. Thereu2019s always something else. Thereu2019s always somebody holding you. Thatu2019s how it feels. And itu2019s rather wonderful. It doesnu2019t remove the struggles from your life, but it means that theyu2019re in the bigger context of you always being held and watched by something much bigger thatu2019s happening. So yeah, Easter is a pretty wonderful time.

""

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